| I've had the urge to post this for a while and decided to do so just as a matter of thought... I've had a question in mind... A topic that might turn your brains in circles... but I will try to bring it together as much as I can... a discussion with an athiest (someone who doesn't believe in god's existance)... yet someone I was willing to learn more about seeing that he/she has lived in a believer's environment most of his/her life, and yet chose to follow their own ways. I've been faced with questions here and there which I trust no religious believer ever had the guts to discuss... yet I found it extremely vital to take their doubts into consideration if one is to look at life from a different prospective... look at what you see rather than what you're told to see... So to begin with... I'll write it as it was said... 3T: so what's your belief? ?: I have none, 3T: howcome? ?: nothing has been proven, for me to believe in... 3T: What exactly has not been proven? ?: any belief you're referring to. 3T: What of the Holy Books? ?: what of them? 3T: do they prove nothing to you? ?: what do they prove to you? 3T: Perhaps that god exists... ?: and how exactly did you come to that conclusion? 3T: due to the truthfulness of what they reveal... ?: ...what is it u're referring to as true?? 3T: about life... certain things that's not likely for a human to know in the time it was written. ?: yes, that is if it was indeed written during that time and if it was somethin that could never have been known as u presume... 3T: what do you mean to say? ... that you believe it may've been written later or changed? Or that such things that require modern knowledge could've been known previously? ?: I believe in neither 3t, I am merely claiming that either one is possible... and whatever is written whether changed or not is written words by human hand... all these doubts pile up and lead to the other... ofcourse not all that is written is false... nor all that is written I would take for granted... 3T: so saying what u said.... what do you make of life exactly? ...elaborate.... ?: I may give you reasons ... but one will have to look at life more realisticly to understand what I'm talking about... you cannot simply make up reasons of why we exist just for the sake of having a reason... science was made to give us facts of how things happen and religion was made to explain why things happen... all no doubt have a purpose... they're related... but one is more valid than the other... beliefs in religion differ in one region to the other... science is only one and factual... religion was no doubt made to help people during their time because people long ago didn't live the life we're living now... through the hardships they've gone through they needed something to believe in... something to keep them going.... something to hold on to... thus different religions were made to serve their own purposes... if I had lived during these days I might've believed in them... Do not get me wrong... u've no idea how much I would love for someone to come up to me and prove that certain beliefs are true, whether it was Islam, Christianity or any other... there are a very few who would open their eyes and see life for what it is rather than follow what they're told without the slightest clue despite all their doubts. It is a question of life itself... I may've had a bit of thought in it... and if I said I believed in god it wouldn't be in the same way you do... since I do not take god as a person. I would refer to him as the essence of life if I were to relate to science... it is what life started with... presumably energy... since it could never be made nor broken... but if you refer to him as a person who wants to be worshiped by his creations and sends them to either hell or heaven... I do not see the reason nor the purpose behind it... but I am sure none of what I doubt could be answered by any human in this lifetime... and the answer "god knows" would be empty to me... so there you know my views... u are free to believe in what u will... nothing you say can convince me... nor prove your theories right... it will more likely cause confliction and where due to differences as it has been goin on for years... But this is how I see it.. all to his own... (I do not know what argument would change the person's mind nor convince him/her that he/she's wrong.. but it is interesting to see how people think and how others would answer to it... ) it is but a question of life and a doubt that is difficult to answer... may anyone who is able to clarify do so... I highly regard such people who struggle to find the true meaning of life rather than follow blindly... they would be the true believers since they are waiting to be convinced and don't simply pretend to believe in what they don't... |
Speaks for itself
2 years ago
32 comments:
I was a third of the way down this entry, until I realised that you had also posted it on the sabla.
I'll continue there :p
lol... I found it interesting for both sites and wanted quick answers... ight, feel free to post wherever... :D
I have debated with many atheists in chat rooms. And, I believe I have won all my debates since they blocked me!...
The most ignorant people I have ever met are the atheists, believe it or not, they are one of the most close-minded sometime too! however many of them I have talked to agreed that Islam is the most logical religion...
I have debated with pagans too and wiccan in Metal Chat Rooms. It was interesting for them to see a religious muslim in a metal chat room!
...When I debate with them I dont use the name Islam..I only use logics and Darwin's theory weakness.
Oh well Again My comments are long and they more sound like an article not a comment...
In My blog I wrote a poem in response to those atheists.
MyreplyOnMyBlog:
http://nezitic.blogspot.com/2005/10/blog-post_112892180161912340.html
And by the way that reply was for some arab bloggers who are atheists and they are very hyprocits as I found out in my observations and comparisons between their blog posts and their comments in some other blogs..I noticed their comments are atheist-oriented while their posts on their blogs are islamic-friendly-oriented...go figure who these people are! they are ARABS and from the gulf countries..no more comment on this...
Salam [x]
arabs... that sounds interesting cuz if that was true it's enlightening to know that some have given it some thought... :)
--
honestly speaking [x]... if you wanna debate i assure u anything u will not convince this person with any theories you try to present.. s/he's in for facts... and I find that great since it bends more to reality than anything else... inshalla you wrote a million poems, so what? what will that prove to them? Perhaps that you can write?... s/he wants valid arguments against his/her statements.... in other words s/he wants to believe but sees no logic in it... well to me s/he's anything but closed-minded... what kind of ignorance could any of it be? ... it is all full of practical thoughts... so I bid you there's no need to try and put them down for their doubts... cuz then I'd know why the athiests blocked you :)
I think you misunderstood me, I didnt write that exact poem for them! or I dont use poems to reply them, I debated with many scientifically not just blah blah religiousn talks!...you want a single proof:
Asking them the following:
Q-How Do you know if this is a chair?
A-Because I see it.
Q-How do you know you exist?
A-I can think and see myself!
Q-How can you think?
A- I have a mind
Q-How do you know you have a mind?
A- Because I have one
Q- Do you have Brain?
A- Yes I have
Q- How?
A- Scientifically I have seen it!
Q- But Wait...Have you seen your mind?
A- No!
Q- So how can you know The Mind exists?
Now the most ignorant answer Atheists always use is:
A- Well, I don't know I haven't seen it, But I am sure Science will make it visible to us " someday"...
The truth is, when they can't answer something they completely depend on Science which they know nothing about, and try to say Future will tell!...if you dont believe in God and his future..how the hell do you[atheist] believe in Science's future!..is it only because you see it, it makes it reliable source of future predictions?
I hope now you get my point when I said they are ignorants, I have argued with many of them...and I have had some friends who were atheists,
They use Science but they don't really know it, most scientists nowadays are atheists but trust me none of them are like Albert.Einstein, Isaac.Newton, Galileo,and more because those simply believed in God,
Albert.Einstein opposed Quatum theory only because he believed it was too much into possibilities that's why he said in meaning not exactly "God doesn't play dice with the universe"
The concept of singularity proves there's god...Singularity can't be explained by science..it's the point of no math or physics can explain..so atheists claims just useless and they will say "Oh Science will prove it someday"...
the big bang...ask them, Why did it happen? they will say Coincidence! If Albert Einstein heard the term Coincidence he would shoot himself because it's ignorance to say Coincidence for such scientific event..and saying Coincidence is not a scientific term it will be more like religious term..and as far as I know they are not into religion but still they believe in it!
Should I keep going?
lol..nevermind
Anyway They are close-minded to some extents.
[x]
and Last thing I would like to mention is A.Einstein's Quote:
"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
Albert.Einstein might have been wrong about The Quantum theory, but he is not wrong in that quote.
Salam now
Ms.3t :)
:os... okay [x]... how in god's name could this relate to any of the doubts the athiest I'm talking about presented?... have you read what I wrote??...
but fine... you can check the thread I opened in sabla... and read it thoroughly to understand the concept before starting a discussion... then I want you to pin point what you think is wrong in it and PROVE it wrong...
and what questions are u asking regarding whether the person had a mind?? First things first is you should define what you mean by mind and through that the person'll answer you...
you can't start it like that! lol
... but if you want to take it from there...
I still cannot see how any of it would prove the presence of god regarding the athiest here...
what process of singularity??? what're you talkin about? cannot be defined??...
u make fun of athiests who rely on facts and haven't realized any irony in the matter?? They say time will tell and we say god knows cuz it's something no one cam ever know which is a completely empty argument...!!
huh? "if you don't believe in god and his future"... my friend what godly future are u talking about if god's existance is doubted in the first place??? this is an athiest speaking... they believe in science because it's proved... it's there right before their eyes... it's OBVIOUS... no one can say that science is wrong... but religions are theories that thrive in a million varieties... we aren't only speaking of Islam but religion in itself...
""The truth is, when they can't answer something they completely depend on Science""
--which is a wise thing to do... why would they give you answers they can't prove?... unlike those who'd give them theories they assume... speaking of reality...
I may as well take Leonardo Da Vinci as a powerful example ... however I won't... because this is not about what former scientists believe in... this is about the truth...
""Why did it happen?""
my friend... if anyone knew why ANYTHING happened there wouldn't be any questions today... cuz that's what religion was made for... no one knows why they exist and you cannot make up reasons out of the blue...
what this one would say is... i can give you reasons what made it happen...but why in itself is beyond my knowledge...
however if I were to lead a discussion in any of it, i'd rather the person gets to the point and doesn't bend here and there... be open and straightforward... and most important of all think logically...
[x]... science without religion is indeed lame ...no doubt about that... but still one cannot make up a religion for the sake of taking out its lameness...
3T:os... okay [x]... how in god's name could this relate to any of the doubts the athiest I'm talking about presented?... have you read what I wrote??...
but fine... you can check the thread I opened in sabla... and read it thoroughly to understand the concept before starting a discussion... then I want you to pin point what you think is wrong in it and PROVE it wrong...
and what questions are u asking regarding whether the person had a mind?? First things first is you should define what you mean by mind and through that the person'll answer you...
you can't start it like that! lol
... but if you want to take it from there...
I still cannot see how any of it would prove the presence of god regarding the athiest here...
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MyReply:I have read what you wrote.
I am talking about Atheists in General not a specific one, I am talking about Atheist as its ideology not as one individual...
It's so obvious to me that you haven't read anything about the Existance of Mind...
we all know there's a mind inside our brain that makes us think!. However We can't see it.
Atheists don't believe something they dont see, as in God, that's how it is related to God existance.
Singularity, it's obvious you haven't read anything in Astronomy, it's a term to describe the point of nothingness and that exists in the center of blackholes or The sun or stars...it's unexplainable...no math can function in it...it's like saying "Write an equation and a theory for zero"..
My whole argument is about Atheists not the guy you talked to.
It's useless to argue with them. Islam advises us to stay away from them and just hope they follow the right path.
I don't want to get religious here. I only argue with them using science, I dont even mention the word God if you have noticed.
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#t:huh? "if you don't believe in god and his future"... my friend what godly future are u talking about if god's existance is doubted in the first place??? this is an athiest speaking... they believe in science because it's proved... it's there right before their eyes... it's OBVIOUS... no one can say that science is wrong... but religions are theories that thrive in a million varieties... we aren't only speaking of Islam but religion in itself...
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Reply:When I said They depend on science when it comes to future question is no different than we depend on God on future question. both are about Destiny, Scientific-Destiny or Religious-Destiny....Both the same..because both you can't really predict. That's why I am comparing them. I didnt expect them to believe in god's future as you understood it. And, Who said Science is not wrong? it can be wrong and right depends on the theory presented...many theories are there disproven in daily bases, Newton's theories on the universe which was used for 200years got disproven in the end by Albert.Einstein!..Darwin's theories are barely proven and mostly supported by atheists....
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Well..I don't bend here and there, that's how people should argue with atheists...use logics..I think you haven't heard of Yusef Estes?...have you watched his Video Lecture called "No Brainer"...go and watch it..Logics are very needed to show an atheist how things work..and to show the things he disbelieve actually exist in him before in God such as MIND!...
Salam [x]
By the way ..is this a comment box or some forums I am in ! Hello ? I am in the wrong place ! nevermind..:)
alllrighty [x]... I'm getting somewhere :)...
...it may be very difficult to make you see this from a different point of view... but let's see... I'll try...
...let's put it this way...
("we all know there's a mind inside our brain that makes us think!. However We can't see it.")
you can't see it because the mind is not an object... it is the same with the soul, the same with time!!... but there are certain fixed aspects that lead us to believe they are there... u cannot compare this to the existance of god because there's nothing certain that could lead us to believe he exists in comparison to the mind...
I hope that message got through :os
No Sorry that message didn't go through...because there's certain things that lead us to the existance of God. It's like time Mind or soul...There's nothing leads u to the existance of the mind except the environment around it. Like A black hole...scientists can't see it but can prove it only by looking at the stars close by it!...The Soul can't be found until Death occurs!!!. God is the same...by looking around...you find him...
An Islamic Challenge to the soviety union during the 1980s. Quran challenged them to create a fly i think or mosqitue. The Russians atheists communists scientists spent 20years trying to create one..they only couldnt make it move!...
In very complex way,
In very deep meaning, scientists always reach a point where they realize that there's only one thing controlling this universe and how unique it moves smoothly, like our Earth it goes through many comets and objects and small planets but none of these hit us ! or destroy the earth completely...looking at things and wondering about them always will lead u to that word "Oh yes how did this become this!"...for an artist looking at a flower..his perspectives on the flower beauty is different than what a scientist would see..a biologist would look close and closer...and he will see the inside of the flower and how it's structured how it functions..and how how how how all the scientific HOWs questions he will answer until he reached that WHY question..and then wonder "Hmmm how and why this thing only function this way..and how amazing this thing ! this is impossible to happen by coincidence there must be someone created it to be like this..not a darwin evolution not a seed from the ground not a magician word...just God creation"....
By the way..are we arguing in this blog and the forum in the same time? LOL...listen I'll go to bed soon..Plus I cant convince you,...
[x] dearest... a very few words... the things that lead to believeing in the existance of the mind is the brain and how we think...
the things that lead to believing in time is how we live through life...
the things that lead to believing in the soul is the secret behind how we live or what is in us to make us live...
the things that you claim lead us to believe in god is not relevant... you know why?... because when you trace the steps of how certain things came to be in life... you will see that it is not miracle and that it has all gone through certain levels to reach that stage...
that's the significance of science...
I told you it is hard to convince facts with theories man...lol...
never mind... go to sleep then ! g'night :)
No i am not going to sleep yet.
the things that you claim lead us to believe in god is not relevant... you know why?... because when you trace the steps of how certain things came to be in life... you will see that it is not miracle and that it has all gone through certain levels to reach that stage...
that's the significance of science...
what you just wrote there is some kind of Darwinist ideology!,which is so far failure! not working and can't be proven! some of its ideas proven and make sense but in some limit the evolution mentioned in his book can't happen to human within only 100,000 years! it needs much more than that...even the evolution in Earth as whole needs more time than the age of Earth itself!...
Trying to Find God is not always by tracing things back to its origin..or past..It's about realizing the beauty and functions of somethings around you...the extinction of the coincidence thinking in oneself results the realization of something powerful behind this beautifully functioning world. ...OK NOW I HOPE U GET MY POINT AND WON'T MISUNDERSTAND WHAT I MEANT WHICH RESULTS U IN TYPING ANOTHER LONG POST WHICH WILL MAKE ME SAY "OH PLZ DEAR MS.3T YOU MISUNDERSTOOD ME"
Salam:) [x]
nope... I won't... it's useless...lol...
so I'm gonna look at the beauty of creations and suggest it has been made by god, not knowing what god is in the first place yet presuming it is the case... clearly no... I do not see the logic in that concept...
unless you define god in some way... like the athiest's theory in grouping up religion and science and saying god is energy... then indeed it would make sense that the world was created by energy if you were to refer to energy as god... but nothing suggests god as a person...
walla 7alaa...lol
You have to be an atheist who is really knowledgeable not the ignorant atheist you talked to. And That realization is not something needs to be introduced to you to realize and know OH THIS IS THE GOD [x] TOLD ME ABOUT, HELLO GOD NICE TO MEET U I HAVE HEARD ALOT ABOUT U FROM [X], nice meeting you again!
NO no no NO!..
God as Islamic views I didn't say as energy ...as muslims see him ...aren't you muslim! i start having doubts.
Anyway. The World? not The Universe was created by energy ! and that's explained in the Quran! ...but for an atheist i won't say anything about Quran...the point is God as God not person or energy...as islam sees him...They will realize it finally if they go through the universe deeply...Many scientists realize that there's something powerful around and behind this universe not DARK ENERGY Not DARK Matter[check out space.com for more infos on those two terms],but something else. those scientists not some ignorant atheists u see in a street shouting out loud with no knowledge " God doesn't exist" ...
or some Heavy Metal Fans shouting out loud "Hell Yeah 666 number of the beast burn them all , burn god he doesn't exist" ..but when you ask them "Hello Dear Metal Fans, who is the president of usa?" they will say "hmmmm, last time I checked it was Metallica"....nevermind...lol....Salam..This is becoming a joke more than a serious discussion in fact it should not be a discussion coz I spent 2 hours typing and i almost published a book!
Salam [x]
dear me [x]... god as Islam sees him is a person :)... lol... a person who'll decide whether u'll go to hell or heaven according to your deeds..
you need not introduce him and again I saw no relevance in what u said to anything I have unfortunately... it's clear you can't somehow turn your eyes to look the other way [x]... I know what you mean... but you also need to know what the athiest means... only those who accept the ideas of both sides would be able to judge... but since I've almost extracted all ur energy for today that u start to make no sense wtsoever (j/k) I'll call it quits...:p :p..
Sorry no More Comments, I can give more examples wallah but i dont see a point in arguing with someone who is basically not an atheist about atheists! don't you think it's silly?...yes it is..when I debate with an atheist you will know how it is. I think Arguing with an atheist it's like Arguing with Bush about Iraq..same same namooonah!.
Salam[x]
never mind [x]... ur not obliged to argue :p...
so good night then :)
Any other Post to argue about ? 3T ?
:|. It's late..I wish the Earth was flat..so time difference won't prevent me from arguing with people from the sunrise side.
... hmm...some things are better left unsaid... or perhaps a hint regarding genders?... still upto it [x]?... thought you gave that up already :p...
affa 3alaik!... you may look out for my next topic... whenever I get the chance...
hey is it right to talk to non-beleivers and be good friends with them?
I take it you suggest it's wrong?... cuz what? you're better than them?... I dunno what's right anonymous, but I know that it's a good person I'm befriending regardless of what he/she believes in...
everyone has his/her own belief...I'm not going to say change your belief otherwise I won't be your friend... broaden your minds for god's sake...
dude tripletee im a muslim and going through Quran i got my answer.It said"muslims should never make non-beleivers their friends"thanx for answering anyway.
although i did have ALOT of friends who were non-beleivers before i read this in Quran.
and what happened later after you read that verse? you abandoned them cuz they didn't share your belief?
well all the best then mate... guess it's all to his own... my friends are my friends no matter what they believe in...
u mean to say that u're a muslim and knowin that Quran doesnt allow being friends with non-beleivers u're still doin what u think is right?
i didnt want to leave em but i had to do as the Quran said.
... this is one who seeks answers to his questions :@... I'm not going to abandon anyone if I don't have the answers in the first place mate... whatever the Quran said... this is one who respects other religions just doesn't believe in them... if it is said to be 7aram to befriend them for whatever reason then by all means I'll take that risk and go to hell for it... but abandoning just cuz they don't share your belief is pathetic... and I don't think the Quran meant that specifically... no one was forced to believe in the same religion... people were allowed to resign by paying...
wtever accuses you're willing to put forth... at least my conscience is clear.
so can i talk to em?
...iight...whoever you are mate... I might ask em... if I get a hold o' em ;)...
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